Host/Producer: Ezgi Toper
Guest: Grace Kuria Kanja
Craft Editor: Nasrullah Yilmaz
Production Team: Afzal Ahmed, Ahmet Ziya Gumus, Mucteba Samil Olmez, Khaled Selim
Executive Producer: Nasra Omar Bwana

TRANSCRIPT

GRACE KURIA KANJA, GUEST: What this shows is a familiar pattern. The bully in the classroom who refuses to follow the rules, but still wants to dominate the discussion. This analyst says that it's less about South Africa and more about a worldview that treats international institutions as instrument instruments of pressure rather than arenas for collective problem solving.

EZGI TOPER, HOST: You’re listening to “In the Newsroom”, and I’m Ezgi Toper. In this podcast, we have conversations with colleagues and experts that go beyond the headlines.

It’s been a week since world leaders met for the G20 summit up in South Africa… and somehow, it’s still in the headlines. 

And no, it’s not because of the climate declaration or the historic fact that this was the first G20 ever held on African soil. It’s because of the ongoing tiff between South Africa and Donald Trump. 

US PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I’ve had a lot of problems with South Africa. They have some very bad policies, very very bad policies. Policies where people are being killed. A lot of people are being killed.

EZGI: South Africa was this year’s G20 president and host. The US is supposed to take over the presidency next year. But instead of a smooth handover, we’re watching a diplomatic spat that started before the summit, played out during the summit, escalated after the summit… and now seems to be rolling straight into next year. 

In this episode, I speak with Grace Kuria Kanja, senior producer and news anchor at TRT World. I ask her what triggered this diplomatic break and what does this signal about US-Africa relations?

Welcome back to the studio, Grace. It's so nice to have you on the show again.

GRACE: I'm glad to be back. Thanks for having me again.

EZGI: So you were in South Africa for the G20 summit, which turned into something of a showdown between South Africa and the US. Can you bring our listeners up to speed on what happened?

GRACE: So, we were looking at a summit without the United States, which had to continue either way. And I remember an interview I had with the country's Foreign Minister Ronald Dlamola, that was on the Tuesday before the summit days on Saturday and Sunday, and he told me that it's usual, it's a norm to have a country send a delegation, like for instance, China. President Xi Jinping did not attend, but he sent the country's Premier Li, but it was out of the norm for an absence, a complete absence. So they were working round the clock to ensure that they achieve a declaration. But guess what? In the end, actually on day one of the summit, the very Saturday, the first of the summit, they achieved a declaration almost on a unanimous consensus, which was actually historic. Not a first, but really historic and a good thing for South Africa.

EZGI: With Trump’s absence, the rest of the leaders drafted the declaration without input from the US, prompting the White House to accuse South Africa of weaponising its leadership.

Ramaphosa insisted there "overwhelming consensus" for the summit declaration. But Argentina, whose far-right President Javier Milei, a close ally of Trump, withdrew at the last minute. 

GRACE: But you did say it was a showdown between the United States and South Africa, which is true because we saw some huge and big words being thrown around like South Africa weaponising its leadership of the G20. I remember speaking to one analyst in South Africa and he said it is the United States that is weaponising the G20 and not the other way around. But at the end of the day, all four priorities for South Africa — that's climate financing, that's enhancing critical minerals, that's a just energy transition and debt sustainability for low income countries as well as bringing peace in Sudan, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in Palestine, and in Ukraine — all of them were achieved almost unanimously, like I said earlier, which was a historic thing.

And it actually proved that indeed decisions can be made without the United States, but of course the repercussions what we're seeing right now is the United States banning or saying it's not going to invite South Africa to its 2026 presidency because now it assumed the G20 presidency.

And something else I forgot was that they usually have a ceremonial handover, the presidency and the instruments at the end of the summit. We didn't see that this time around simply because the US was a no show. The US wanted South Africa's president to hand over the presidency to a representative from the US embassy in South Africa. South Africa says that's a breach of protocol, that's not possible. So the handover happened later on at the Department of International Relations and Cooperation to a staff that is at the same rank. That’s what South Africa insisted would happen.

But of course, as of now, there are what we call Sherpa meetings, which is what happens in the lead up to the main summit. In fact, we have meetings that will happen on 15th and 16th December in Washington and already Washington has not invited Pretoria. But South Africa says, hey, it's fine, we'll keep pushing, and if this doesn't work, we have 2027 in the United Kingdom once the UK assumes the presidency, but of course insists that all of this is regrettable and that South Africa is rightfully there. South Africa is a founding member of G20 and so all this really shouldn't be happening.

EZGI: For people that are hearing about this for the first time, can you tell us what exactly is the dispute between Donald Trump and South Africa about?

GRACE: Absolutely. I mean, the main dispute right now between Trump and South Africa is the allegations of a white genocide in South Africa, which Pretoria, the capital, has denied. President Ramaphosa has denied. The Afrikaners themselves, the people that Trump is saying are being killed, have denied.

We saw Trump come out with what he called evidence of news articles of white genocide in South Africa and clips of crosses to symbolise, like burial grounds or graves, which is all false. 

TRUMP: These are burial sites right here. Burial sites. Over a thousand of white farmers. And those cars are lined up to pay love on a Sunday morning. Each one of those white things you see is a cross. 

GRACE: There is no white genocide that's happening in in South Africa. Matter of fact, what's happening is people reclaiming what is rightfully theirs because we all know what happened during the apartheid and the fact that there were restrictions to the black population.

So, what is there and what again Trump bases his allegations on is the expropriation law that was signed by the government, Ramaphosa's government, in January this year, I believe, which allows for expropriation of land without compensation in circumstances that are deemed just and equitable to the public interest, which is basically what Trump again is basing all of this on.

EZGI: Trump’s issue with South Africa traces back to a long-running political debate about land reform. South Africa has been considering changes to enable the government to take land from current owners — mostly white farmers — without paying compensation. Trump has repeatedly criticised the idea, positioning it as discrimination against white farmers.

TRUMP: What South Africa is doing is they are taking away land, they are confiscating land and actually they are doing things that are perhaps far worse than that.

EZGI: But as Grace points out, supporters see this reform as a way to correct the massive inequalities created by apartheid and long-overdue justice.

GRACE: They've always been inequality. The white South Africans make up a little over seven percent of the entire population. That's according to the latest census, South African government data. But they own more than 70 percent of all privately owned farmland in the country. Again, that's according to government data from 2017.

So, the inequality levels are really high, and that is what the country or Pretoria is now trying to equalise, that hey, we're all here, we all belong to South Africa, white or Black, it doesn't matter. But let's be fair to one another.

EZGI: And while land reform has long been a domestic flashpoint, what really turned global attention toward South Africa was its genocide case against Israel at the International Court of Justice, a move Trump strongly condemned, and Grace says deepened the strain between the two countries.

GRACE: So, with the US definitely being a long time ally of Israel, they're not pleased with that. So this is yet another contributing factor to all of this, the genesis of all of this.

EZGI: So you believe that that case is also connected to the current tensions that we're seeing play out?

GRACE: Absolutely and it's not just me, because we're doing research and we're seeing analysts saying that this has. Well, Trump has not come out and said that it's because of this, but you join the dots, cross the T's and dot the I's and you see there's a lead up to all of this. It definitely has to be the genocide case against Israel, and it definitely has to be the white genocide allegations in South Africa, which, again, I must insist, South Africa denies, and even the Afrikaners themselves, this white population, says this is not happening.

EZGI: So before this tension, how would you describe the traditional relationship between the US and South Africa?

GRACE: I mean, it's interesting because the United States is actually South Africa's second largest single country trading partner after China. Statistics or data from the Office of the US Trade Representative says that in 2024, the total goods and service trade between the two countries reached an estimated $26.2 billion US dollars. That's a huge transaction. That's huge business between these two countries.

South Africa is also one of the African countries that have long benefited from the African Growth and Opportunity Act, that's AGOA, that actually expired this year, September, and Trump is yet to renew it. But this agreement has been ongoing since the Bill Clinton era and it basically allowed for duty free access to the US market for South African countries, South Africa included, but that's US South Africa. How about Trump's South Africa? Because this white genocide allegation. It's not the first time he's making it. During his first presidency in 2018 to be particular, he directed his Secretary of State to look into land and farm seizures and the large-scale killing of farmers in South Africa. I remember that like it was yesterday. And I remember yet again South Africa coming out to say that this is not true.

RAMAPHOSA: The issue of whether what he terms as “genocide” can be equated to the struggle, and of course it cannot because there is just no genocide in South Africa. 

GRACE: You know, just in simple terms, this friend that has beef with you and then he's president and then he doesn't make it to get a second term, but when he comes back, he ensures that he has to revisit the beef, and of course the culmination of that has been the tariffs that granted the United States has imposed on, I would say, almost all countries.

EZGI: Right, right.

GRACE: But in Africa, South Africa got the highest tariff of 30 percent after the review and all of that eventually. Trump cutting foreign aid to other African countries, but also to South Africa and especially that move threatening the country's response to, I mean, it's HIV response, but of course South Africa has long downplayed these consequences of cutting the aid because they say that the United States' contribution to its fight against HIV and AIDS is only about 17 percent. So, basically this is South Africa saying that even though you've cut the aid, I mean it doesn't affect us that much, but these are some of the repercussions that we're seeing from these frosty relations.

EZGI: So how is the South African government handling all this? I mean, what steps are they taking to try to ease this tension or resolve this conflict with Trump?

GRACE: Absolutely. I'll take you back to the summit and I'll take you back to what other people were saying because we spoke with analysts on the ground. And people that are not even South African and they were saying that this is probably the unfolding of a new global order, an evolving global order, because things are happening throughout the United States. I bring this out to, to, to raise the point that South Africa is making relations or strengthening its relations with other countries, with other regions. We saw it sign agreements with the European Union, for instance, on mineral beneficiation to allow for mineral beneficiation to happen on South African soil.

We've seen them strengthen their partnership with China, for instance, and remember, China and the US are always engaged in this geopolitical struggle. For Africa, I would say, we've seen, South Africa being part of these African countries that are strengthening intra-African trade which has unfortunately been at an all-time low, but it's coming up. We've seen them join hands to allow again for minerals to be beneficiated on the African soil because a problem I have with this continent of ours is that it's so rich, so rich with 30 percent of the world's mineral reserves, but yet poor, which shouldn't be the case. Why should we mine the minerals, and then export raw materials, have them processed outside? And then have them brought back in? Doesn’t make sense. Why can't we mine the minerals here, value add them, process them, beneficiate them on African soil?

That's not to say that they are throwing out their relations with the United States, South African president has long insisted that he values constructive ties with the United States, that they will further engage Trump, that they will further push, for better relations with with Trump, because I remember before the summit, during my research, I heard Ramaphosa say that he's not pleased with everything that's happening, but for him, it's the interests of South Africans that he has at heart. And so if it means engaging with Trump yet again, if it means engaging with the US yet again, he will do it for his people because, hey, at the end of the day, we need these trade deals, not just South Africa, but the United States as well. So at the end of the day, they will do everything they can to keep the relations going, but South African's presidential spokesman Vincent Magwenya just said that, if for instance, visas are denied to attend the G20 summit in Miami in 2026, then they'll move on and look beyond G20 2026.

EZGI: And what about the South African public? How are they responding to all of this?

GRACE: That's interesting to note, and I'm going to answer that with comments from, I'm taking my time because I'm trying to open this link because I mean, two days ago, the G20 United States did open a or formed a Facebook page, and that's where I am right now. It says G20 United States, and it, I mean G20 Miami 2026, and it has this photo of Trump, and so people are saying that it's all about Trump, but hey, these are the comments. We have a woman here dancing who says when we get to Miami, and then we have someone else saying South Africans are good at attending uninvited events, who gave birth to the word gate crashers, and then someone else has one of the shuttles in South Africa and he says, when you see this car, know that we have arrived. And others are saying, I knew I will find cupcake — South Africans call Ramaphosa cupcake,, some of them. So someone is saying, I knew I will find cupcakes children in here on the comments, of course. And lastly, another. One has shared a clip of Ramaphosa walking and he says this will be our entrance as South Africa in that G20. So they're having a field.

EZGİ: It's kind of a meme right now.

GRACE: That's the point. So I mean, that's the reaction. They are because granted, the country does have its own challenges like many other countries. But what I got even from being there, people are proud of, of the country. People are proud of Ramaphosa and what he was able to achieve. I mean, convening the G20 and having a declaration on day one, that's not a mean feat, you know, and it comes, it gets to a point where we stand together in solidarity as a country even despite our differences, you know. So that's the feeling here and people standing with and in solidarity with Ramaphosa and South Africa, their country.

EZGI: You mentioned earlier that it's not just South Africa that Trump is taking issue with. Stepping back, how would you describe his broader relationship with African countries over his political career?

GRACE: Absolutely. It's a mix of good and bad. I'll start with the good because during his first presidency, we had what he called the Prosper Africa Initiative. Granted, it was to counter China's influence on the African continent, but it worked because it was basically designed to increase two-way trade and investment between the United States and African countries. So that. But in 2018, he made some derogatory remarks about the African continent and people in it, which I am definitely not going to mention out here. But people remember that, you know, anytime you talk about Trump and and and and and Africa, there's also his infamous mispronunciation of Namibia, the country as Namibia, 

TRUMP: To be joined by the leaders of… Nambia 

GRACE: You know, these are things that people remember, if we could move forward now to this, this, this, this presidency, but actually not this year, but last year because he actually compared himself to South Africa's icon, Nelson Mandela. I don't know why he would do that, you know, the remarks that he made, and I quote saying, a lot of people are coming into the US from a big prison in the DRC. Again, how true is that, you know.

But the thing is, his relationship, again, not just to the African continent, but with even other countries is transactional for him. It's America fast and what we're seeing with between him and countries in Africa is, for instance, his, his mass deportations to African countries. We seen him deport people to South Sudan, to Eswatini, to Rwanda, to Uganda, you know, transactional again.

What is making the headlines today, and I say today, knowing that it's the 4th of December, is the peace deal that is going to be signed in Washington today between the presidents, DRC president Felix Sakadi and Rwanda President Paul Kagame, which is historic, by the way. I filed a package for that for news and it was quite a struggle to get footage of of Kagame and Shikedi together because granted they met this year in Qatar, but the last time I I believe, I hope I'm not wrong, was for them to be together was in 2019 during an Africa CEO summit, and then we have footage of them, during the negotiations that have been led by Angola and Nairobi and all of that. I feel like I'm drifting away. But the point here is the DRC deal. But the thing, here's the catch, it's a minerals for security deal the United States facilitating peace in the DRC, but what does it get in exchange? Minerals. So it's transactional, you know, and that's that's, that's it for him.

EZGI: The leaders of the Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda are set to sign a peace deal aimed at ending the long-running regional conflict at a summit hosted by Trump in Washington. Ahead of the summit, there has been an escalation in fighting between government forces and rebels believed to be backed by Rwanda. 

EZGI: A few months back, Grace and I spoke about the conflict. If you’re interested in learning more you can listen to our episode “What stands between the DRC and lasting peace?” Now, back to Trump’s moves in Africa:

GRACE: But of course, in the past or previous days, we've seen his policy on Nigeria with the allegations of Christian genocide in Nigeria and then just recently he's been singling out Somalis in the United States, saying that “we do not want them in our country.”

But these are the things that people remember, but that said, we should not forget that there's trade in between the two countries. We should not forget that he heavily insists on trade and not aid, which some Africans think is good actually. And I'm not the one saying it.

This is a quote from from Uganda that I got from June 2024. One person saying that, “Trump gives everyone and particularly Africans to their face and believes that each country must work hard to feed, protect and ensure its people or ensure its people from killer diseases and not rely on aid.” Which is actually a good thing because this again goes back to what I've been saying that as the continent, as the African continent, we should be able to stand on our two feet. Because we have everything, we have the population, we have the minerals. What more do we want? Trade, not aid again.

But also, in terms of what African leaders are doing to respond to all of this is the famous statement of African solutions to African problems, because again, if I would quote Rwandan President Paul Kagame in February 2025, he said that Africa now finds itself at a crossroads because the health financing landscape, for instance, has shifted dramatically and so it means contributing more from our own resources and relentlessly focusing on value for money.

So again this is people who are having to go back to the drawing board and acknowledging and recognising that they are rich. And acknowledging and recognising that they've made selfish deals so far, but something needs to be done. Because again, I mean, I don't know how many times I've said this right here and even before that Africa is rich and the reflection that we see of the continent really shouldn't be the case. And it's, it's, it's unfair even to the people of the continent to hold all for DRC to hold all the resources it holds, but to still be one of the poorest countries in the world. Shouldn't be the case.

EZGI: And you know, I find it, like you said, almost ironic that Trump's strategy of alienating countries actually leads to an empowerment of sorts. Do you feel like other African leaders are sensing this too?

Is there, what is the reaction that they've been giving to Trump's recent policies.

GRACE: I'm reminded of again the G20 summit in South Africa because I believe it was the Minister for Foreign Affairs again. He said that they had agreed, African countries have agreed to have the mineral beneficiation done on the African continent, which is a huge stride. You know, it's, it's a milestone, it's an achievement, working towards, I believe, the 2063 goals by the African Union for the continent. And so we are seeing a coming together, but we're also seeing, for instance, during this Washington trip, some other presidents have been invited, like Kenya's president, for instance, William Ruto is also in Washington to oversee the peace deal, the signing of the peace deal, but on the side he's also going to make his own separate deals for his country, with the United States. He's also there in his capacity as the chair of the East African Community. So basically we're just see people working together because again, no man is an island, you know, you need, we need to pull from all fronts.

EZGI: And looking forward, looking ahead, what should we be watching in the next few months to understand Where the US and South Africa's relationship is heading.

GRACE: I mean, the point is for me would be the Sherpa meetings on the summit that happen as a lead up or to working towards the culmination of the main summit. The first, I believe it's the first one, happening on the 15th and 16th of December in Washington. South Africa is not invited. But let's see, there's so many other — South Africa had more than a hundred leading up to the main summit. So let's see how that goes.

If we ever hear that South Africa has been invited, that that's a good sign, you know. If that doesn't happen, that's also a sign. So, I think for me, that's one of the things that could show us where this relationship is headed or maybe if these two leaders ever meet again at some point — by the two, I'm talking about Trump and Ramaphosa — then we'll be able to analyse even the body language and all of that, because, of course, what we saw from the first meeting this year wasn't that good. But I think the Sherpa meetings will tell us what we need to know about these two countries.

EZGI: Thank you so much for being on the show.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure.

EZGI: In his own words, Ramaphosa offered a reminder of what this debate is really about:

RAMAPHOSA: There should be no unwritten rules about those who feast and those who must be settled for scraps. It basically means that there should be no bullying of one nation by another nation. We are all equal.

EZGI: And as Grace reminded us: The next few months and the upcoming Sherpa meetings in Washington may be the clearest indicator of where this diplomatic standoff goes next. Will South Africa find its way back into the G20 process under a US presidency? Or are we watching a realignment take shape that could shift global power balances for years to come?

Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, I’m Ezgi Toper, and this was “In the Newsroom”.